It’s incredibly important for men to have time to blow off steam together: Play, joke, compete, gamble, whatever it is. Some of them don’t express struggle or distress at all. They need that time with other men who know them well enough to see through the facade.
Frank, I hear what You are saying. Democrats missed an opportunity with our Youth. Let’s see what the future holds for us All under this current administration.
Agreed, bro time is essential, and few of us regular guys get much of it. Curious about the suspicions cast toward male gatherings when female gatherings are well-established and warmly accepted. Is this the old-school homophobia issue rearing its ugly head? Is it covert jealousy on the part of female partners? Is it female partner suspicion that men may be having affairs? These two latter issues come up with some frequency in my men's discussion groups. Do we need to bring back bowling leagues?
No, many women are afraid the guys will go out drinking and cheat on them. It’s a control thing. And it might happen, but guys need other guys to pull them back from the brink sometimes, I wouldn’t deprive a man I cared for of that, just to create a false sense of security for myself.
Since the percentage of men who are actively anti-social or sociopaths, any large grouping of men will have many of the types that will make the gathering horrible for most men.
I also suspect, if we drilled down into the data, we would see massive variation between women of different age, class, and above all (of course) educational attainment.
Great article. It seems the stigma of males “not needing anyone” is still around. Many still feel they have to have it all together.
There’s 2 things I know about this topic.
1- we were designed to be social beings. Every single human wants to be loved and accepted.
2- thoughts can betray you. You don’t really know if the thought in your head is a good one or not until it’s calibrated against reality. This requires social interaction with other males.
Deborah Tannen said many years ago that the worst thing little girls do to other little girls is “banishment” from their gathered social groups. Today it would be evolutionary psychologists who illuminate why, based on feminine instincts in hunter gatherers.
Think on this: if applied to both males and females today it equals cancel culture with the side effect of “banishment” of males too, including from gathering in groups being frowned upon via this punishment instinct.
It’s the reason for your observation that is dead-on.
I think it's a leap to go from the question: "Do all-male groups have a positive impact on society overall?" to say "women are so opposed to men spending time together." The phrase "all-male groups," particularly in the social context, brings up secret societies, exclusive country clubs, and other bastions of exclusion and power from the past (and, to some degree, in the present.) But I don't think it means that the same women who would see these as problematic would necessarily oppose men spending time together. The fact that men also (to a lesser degree) answer that all-male groups have not had an overall positive impact on society, makes me think people are not exclusively thinking of social outings and male friendships. It would be good to tease these data out some more and make this a bit more fine-grained. Otherwise I fear it will feed the narrative that women are the enemy of male flourishing. (I haven't read the comments yet, but I'll bet a bunch of them are from the regular anti-feminist group.)
When I think of all-male groups, Men's Bible Study is not top of mind. (lol) I think of Boy Scouts, college frats, and gaggles of men in [insert city here] looking for hookers. In any of those situations, I'm concerned for either the boys, young women, or perhaps the men themselves if the location is Colombia. I'm sure a chunk of people were thinking the same way. Similarly, the historic halls of power previously limited to men: a cigar club for business deals, come to mind.
Mentoring spaces like Boy Scouts are sorely needed as are Bible Studies or whatever other positive and encouraging spaces exist but I imagine most women are thinking of spaces in which they or someone they know were either harmed or excluded.
Ole, Tyler and Frank, I actually know only two Young Anglo American men who have been imprinted by podcasts in a negative way. It’s disheartening to me.
Now I know I have steered away from the idea of Young Men and other aged men getting together and I think socializing is a good thing. It’s those Young Men who drift away via podcasts and healthy men’s groups that worry me.
Frank I never intended to mean testosterone was a bad hormone for men. I just think some men like in the Latino Community love to flex their muscles when together and partying at family celebrations. I guess I just got off topic and I apologize. Love Your work here and keep asking questions! Thanks!
As innkeepers for over twenty years, my husband and I have found that a women's weekend is a priority for all ages. Women will gladly leave their partners with kids and activities at home while they escape to gather with friends or even women they don't know yet. Many of these women guests and my friends complain that men won't prioritize a men's weekend and wish they would connect more deeply with other men. Once or twice a year, my husband and I host a gathering of men for biking or hockey at the Inn, and some of the same complaining women offer to "help" in the kitchen or to visit with me while the men play or ride. I impatiently remind them that these weekends are for the fellas and that we should let them engage the way we have hoped they would. The men who attend these weekends play some hockey or take bike rides, but most of their time is spent engaged in varying levels of meaningful conversations about their lives around the fire, over a meal, and by the side of the pond. The age range can be from 20 to 70 years old, and the mentorship that occurs is amazing. It is often assumed that men can't or won't connect deeply, but some women can't help themselves from trying to witness, control, or direct the connection. We have noticed that a weekend with some structure rather than drinking as the main plan for a time to gather, connections happen in ways women may not recognize or appreciate.
I can understand women's concern and answering the survey differently. Boys are taught dysfunctional communication and conditioned to believe that getting too close to a male friend was something to be afraid of. The barrier to men and boy's continued isolation is first and foremost coming from within. We need to create healthy models of socialization and communication so that our boys learn to not be afraid, and male groups don't give women and girls reason to be suspicious.
"It makes me sad to see that so many women are so opposed to men spending time with each other"
The sad truth is that feminist and feminist-leaning women have no concern for the welfare of men. That form of societal cancer has been going on for 50 years.
I guess my fear/concern with men getting together is their testosterone. It seems to me testosterone can get in the way of creating greatness/machismo or getting Your voice heard. It seems as tho late night podcast listening or listening to podcasts while driving puts You in an echo chamber and taints Your vision of reality. I don’t think it can be avoided tho cuz we are in it big time right now! Sons are now turning to their Fathers and having their Fathers listen to radical right podcast thought. It seems as tho parenting isn’t parenting anymore. Parents want to be their children’s friend so manners like kindness and grace are no longer taught or modeled. And I am not sure just how we will return to good parenting now. I guess parenting is just not healthy anymore?
This sounds like sis-science (like bro-science, but for women). Do you have a foundation for this (that boys are radicalizing their fathers), or is it just how you percieve it to be from your perspective?
Have you listened to these late night podcasts? What is your definition of radical right?
That said - what we have is a lack of fathers in our boys lives. The "troubled boys" are "fatherless" to an alarming degree! It's not "gentle parenting" og "friendly parenting" that's the (most pressing) issue. The problem is a lack of fathers in our childrens lives. If you follow Richard Reeves, Will Farrell and others you would understand what an outsized impact fathers have on their sons (and daughters) and not to the detriment of either!
The truth is that testosterone has many benefits for men's health, including male behavior. Turn off the feminist programming long enough to learn the truth about men and male issues.
Sylvia, what makes the podcasts "unhealthy"? They impart Red Pill truths to help men survive in a culture that doesn't care about them. The podcasts give men hope when the Democratic Party has shown scorn and contempt for them..
Men alone listen to podcasts, men in groups talk to each other. I listen to a lot of podcasts but don't include Rogan and the like. They are apparently the ones that seem to speak to men's issues which is attractive to young men that feel on their own. A bit of a chicken and egg situation.
Sylvia, my qualm with this explanation is that you have attributed your fear and concern of men being together to a fundamental aspect of their biology. That takes away mens agency, affirms society's distrust in them, and dismisses very real systemic issues which do create cause for concern.
It’s incredibly important for men to have time to blow off steam together: Play, joke, compete, gamble, whatever it is. Some of them don’t express struggle or distress at all. They need that time with other men who know them well enough to see through the facade.
Bro time for me is rolling dice and playing make believe as we try not to die to snake wizards.
Frank, I hear what You are saying. Democrats missed an opportunity with our Youth. Let’s see what the future holds for us All under this current administration.
Agreed, bro time is essential, and few of us regular guys get much of it. Curious about the suspicions cast toward male gatherings when female gatherings are well-established and warmly accepted. Is this the old-school homophobia issue rearing its ugly head? Is it covert jealousy on the part of female partners? Is it female partner suspicion that men may be having affairs? These two latter issues come up with some frequency in my men's discussion groups. Do we need to bring back bowling leagues?
No, many women are afraid the guys will go out drinking and cheat on them. It’s a control thing. And it might happen, but guys need other guys to pull them back from the brink sometimes, I wouldn’t deprive a man I cared for of that, just to create a false sense of security for myself.
Since the percentage of men who are actively anti-social or sociopaths, any large grouping of men will have many of the types that will make the gathering horrible for most men.
I also suspect, if we drilled down into the data, we would see massive variation between women of different age, class, and above all (of course) educational attainment.
Great article. It seems the stigma of males “not needing anyone” is still around. Many still feel they have to have it all together.
There’s 2 things I know about this topic.
1- we were designed to be social beings. Every single human wants to be loved and accepted.
2- thoughts can betray you. You don’t really know if the thought in your head is a good one or not until it’s calibrated against reality. This requires social interaction with other males.
Bring back the saloons!
https://firstthings.com/what-is-the-longhouse/
Relevant to the topic at hand.
Deborah Tannen said many years ago that the worst thing little girls do to other little girls is “banishment” from their gathered social groups. Today it would be evolutionary psychologists who illuminate why, based on feminine instincts in hunter gatherers.
Think on this: if applied to both males and females today it equals cancel culture with the side effect of “banishment” of males too, including from gathering in groups being frowned upon via this punishment instinct.
It’s the reason for your observation that is dead-on.
"The good news here is that rates of violence are way down, which means of course male violence."
This is false. Female criminality is on the rise. Surprise.
I think it's a leap to go from the question: "Do all-male groups have a positive impact on society overall?" to say "women are so opposed to men spending time together." The phrase "all-male groups," particularly in the social context, brings up secret societies, exclusive country clubs, and other bastions of exclusion and power from the past (and, to some degree, in the present.) But I don't think it means that the same women who would see these as problematic would necessarily oppose men spending time together. The fact that men also (to a lesser degree) answer that all-male groups have not had an overall positive impact on society, makes me think people are not exclusively thinking of social outings and male friendships. It would be good to tease these data out some more and make this a bit more fine-grained. Otherwise I fear it will feed the narrative that women are the enemy of male flourishing. (I haven't read the comments yet, but I'll bet a bunch of them are from the regular anti-feminist group.)
THERE ARE secret (and even, not secret) clubs of power for females. Why not having the same for males??
Completely agree. This nuance is ESSENTIAL.
When I think of all-male groups, Men's Bible Study is not top of mind. (lol) I think of Boy Scouts, college frats, and gaggles of men in [insert city here] looking for hookers. In any of those situations, I'm concerned for either the boys, young women, or perhaps the men themselves if the location is Colombia. I'm sure a chunk of people were thinking the same way. Similarly, the historic halls of power previously limited to men: a cigar club for business deals, come to mind.
Mentoring spaces like Boy Scouts are sorely needed as are Bible Studies or whatever other positive and encouraging spaces exist but I imagine most women are thinking of spaces in which they or someone they know were either harmed or excluded.
Ole, Tyler and Frank, I actually know only two Young Anglo American men who have been imprinted by podcasts in a negative way. It’s disheartening to me.
Now I know I have steered away from the idea of Young Men and other aged men getting together and I think socializing is a good thing. It’s those Young Men who drift away via podcasts and healthy men’s groups that worry me.
Frank I never intended to mean testosterone was a bad hormone for men. I just think some men like in the Latino Community love to flex their muscles when together and partying at family celebrations. I guess I just got off topic and I apologize. Love Your work here and keep asking questions! Thanks!
Sylvia they aren’t drifting away those spaces are being co-opted.
As innkeepers for over twenty years, my husband and I have found that a women's weekend is a priority for all ages. Women will gladly leave their partners with kids and activities at home while they escape to gather with friends or even women they don't know yet. Many of these women guests and my friends complain that men won't prioritize a men's weekend and wish they would connect more deeply with other men. Once or twice a year, my husband and I host a gathering of men for biking or hockey at the Inn, and some of the same complaining women offer to "help" in the kitchen or to visit with me while the men play or ride. I impatiently remind them that these weekends are for the fellas and that we should let them engage the way we have hoped they would. The men who attend these weekends play some hockey or take bike rides, but most of their time is spent engaged in varying levels of meaningful conversations about their lives around the fire, over a meal, and by the side of the pond. The age range can be from 20 to 70 years old, and the mentorship that occurs is amazing. It is often assumed that men can't or won't connect deeply, but some women can't help themselves from trying to witness, control, or direct the connection. We have noticed that a weekend with some structure rather than drinking as the main plan for a time to gather, connections happen in ways women may not recognize or appreciate.
I can understand women's concern and answering the survey differently. Boys are taught dysfunctional communication and conditioned to believe that getting too close to a male friend was something to be afraid of. The barrier to men and boy's continued isolation is first and foremost coming from within. We need to create healthy models of socialization and communication so that our boys learn to not be afraid, and male groups don't give women and girls reason to be suspicious.
"It makes me sad to see that so many women are so opposed to men spending time with each other"
The sad truth is that feminist and feminist-leaning women have no concern for the welfare of men. That form of societal cancer has been going on for 50 years.
I guess my fear/concern with men getting together is their testosterone. It seems to me testosterone can get in the way of creating greatness/machismo or getting Your voice heard. It seems as tho late night podcast listening or listening to podcasts while driving puts You in an echo chamber and taints Your vision of reality. I don’t think it can be avoided tho cuz we are in it big time right now! Sons are now turning to their Fathers and having their Fathers listen to radical right podcast thought. It seems as tho parenting isn’t parenting anymore. Parents want to be their children’s friend so manners like kindness and grace are no longer taught or modeled. And I am not sure just how we will return to good parenting now. I guess parenting is just not healthy anymore?
This sounds like sis-science (like bro-science, but for women). Do you have a foundation for this (that boys are radicalizing their fathers), or is it just how you percieve it to be from your perspective?
Have you listened to these late night podcasts? What is your definition of radical right?
That said - what we have is a lack of fathers in our boys lives. The "troubled boys" are "fatherless" to an alarming degree! It's not "gentle parenting" og "friendly parenting" that's the (most pressing) issue. The problem is a lack of fathers in our childrens lives. If you follow Richard Reeves, Will Farrell and others you would understand what an outsized impact fathers have on their sons (and daughters) and not to the detriment of either!
The truth is that testosterone has many benefits for men's health, including male behavior. Turn off the feminist programming long enough to learn the truth about men and male issues.
I will take Your word into consideration Frank. I didn’t mean offend. Just trying to figure out what’s going on with Young Men and unhealthy podcasts.
Sylvia, what makes the podcasts "unhealthy"? They impart Red Pill truths to help men survive in a culture that doesn't care about them. The podcasts give men hope when the Democratic Party has shown scorn and contempt for them..
https://www.aol.com/trump-won-because-democrats-keep-120700738.html?guccounter=1
Men alone listen to podcasts, men in groups talk to each other. I listen to a lot of podcasts but don't include Rogan and the like. They are apparently the ones that seem to speak to men's issues which is attractive to young men that feel on their own. A bit of a chicken and egg situation.
Sylvia, my qualm with this explanation is that you have attributed your fear and concern of men being together to a fundamental aspect of their biology. That takes away mens agency, affirms society's distrust in them, and dismisses very real systemic issues which do create cause for concern.