"A good faith debate about whether fathers need to be husbands"
Absolutely not. There are plenty, way too many, fatherless boys in the foster care system in need of a forever home. Single men of at least middle class income should adopt them. This will also solve the male loneliness epidemic.
No idea what pro marriage policies look like? What a disingenuous statement.
Here's an idea Mr. Reeves. No man would want to get into a contract where the state incentivises the other party when she breaks the contract by penalizing him.
Fix divorce, alimony and child support laws. Fix the discrimination in family court. Do that, and marriage is fixed.
I think their is plenty of blame to go around for the breakdown of family. However, the misandrist, feminist organizations have been the primary driving force. Their vision of a utopian society that is totally matriarchal has made our society sick. While their goal is to lift women up by neutering and demeaning men, they have inadvertently hurt those they claim to advocate for. If our society is going to heal, we must fight back against their omnipresent influence.
I completely get Anna Machin's comment that 'fathers aren't really there for mothers'. It's taken me a long time to understand that I'm not just the support act to my amazing wife and the mother of our children. But my Twitter biog for example says 'husband' first, before 'dad' because I really saw (maybe still do see) myself as that first. And that's not helpful and not doing my children any favours as I now understand
IMO the correlation between marriage/marital stability and college degrees is not a coincidence, though it is possible that those men who get degrees are, to begin with, culturally more child-nourishing than those who do not.
Encouraging men to get college degrees (or the equivalent) look s like the best way to encourage marriage and stability bringing up children. Not perfect, But better ny more than just by few percentage points.
That will not change the cultural factors that make single parenthood heritable among some sub-cultures of Americans. But it would be a start.
If you first value marriage, then valuing fatherhood will follow. Stop teaching mindless sex to kids and start teaching them about healthy, committed relationships and you might get better fathers. This is culture problem in that our moral cohesion as a country has disintegrated. We need to rediscover the moral fabric that produced healthy families in times past. If we don't, then we'll just have to rediscover it the hard way: by losing our society to chaos and criminality first. Less marriage = less dads = more prisons.
You say you know of no way to increase marriage? How about default child custody of 50/50 which is the case in so many countries? How about criminalizing/penalizing paternity fraud and NOT forcing men to pay child support for children that are NOT THEIRS - it's slavery, and yes, this happens a lot!
People like to pretend that fathers don't want to be in their child's life to explain fatherlessness - that's just convenient misandry.
Further, you want to increase marriage? How about not unilaterally enforcing men to provide finances to the woman during and even after the marriage when divorce happens! The part that learns less is incentivized financially to break the marriage and family up without any repercussion to them.
Women are not as affected by divorce - they know that - and they know they can coerce their husband and make them feel dread if the husband is not doing what they want.
I know of women that have threatened divorce if he didn't buy her a new phone, car, home - I witnessed it firsthand.
If you quit your job, don't expect a paycheck.
Alimony should not exist and child custody should be default 50/50 like it is in so many countries already.
In the UK a woman can claim sexual assault when fighting the ex husband in court as a way to get her legal fees waived! Lawyers literally recommend these women lie to get free legal support. The men have to use up their own dollars.
For paternity tests, the men have to pay for it. Women have access to funds that men don't have access to.
How can you seriously not know how to increase marriage rates?
Divorce lawyers literally tell women to lie about sexual abuse of them, the wife, and even the children, to get custody in family court.
These systems need to change.
Stop playing clueless about this.
Men are tired of being treated like masochistic beasts of burden working the field.
People only pretend to care about men when they withdraw from society and people start to get uncomfortable.
Like when a TV stops working, you slap the side of it until the signal comes back on.
"The beatings will continue until morale improves".
Your writings are quite gynocentric.
Marriage contracts are unfair - all the responsibility and the risk is upon men - and women lord that over the men, holding them hostage.
Don't play dumb.
Men are enforced by law to provide even after divorce, what are women enforced by law to provide? Nothing.
There, I solved the great "mystery" for you.
further, women can abort or abandon children at designated baby drop off areas, no repercussions. The state doesn't chase her for child support.
Men cannot abandon children.
Fatherhood is forced, motherhood is not.
Men are enforced to provide finances, but women are not forced to provide anything in marriage.
Women have rights to their genitals, but boys get circumcised and mutilated and USA thinks it is a funny joke to put in their crap TV shows and trash Hollywood garbage films.
FOREGEN is a company that is regrowing foreskins in labs, healthy densely innervated highly erogenous sexual tissue that over 6500+ species of mammals have. European men do not suffer for having their entire genitals.
Imagine having your genitals mutilated, then growing up being told how to treat girls, but never being taught how you should be treated and when do identify abuse from women or society, then getting thrown into selective service draft system as human cannon fodder.
DO YOU GET IT YET?
Men are treated like masochistic beasts of burden.
This society hates men and takes them for granted.
I'm glad that marriage and military recruitment is at an all time low.
young men know these double standards - and many of them don't put up with it and refuse to contribute to a society that only liberates women and protects them, but keeps men in their shackles.
---------------------------------------
MORE ON MALE GENITAL MUTILATION
Circumcision is misandrist, sexist, child sexual abuse mutilation.
MEN DESERVE FULL RIGHTS OVER THEIR GENITALS.
IT IS Genital mutilation.
It's misandrist mutilation that needs to be banned on minors.
If it's not a life-saving procedure, it is unnecessary mutilation.
The film, "American Circumcision", by Brendon Marotta, needs to be viewed en masse, too.
Neonatal circumcision is a preverbal somatic trauma, an adverse childhood event. For background, and sources, look up Dr. Peter Levine of Somatic Experiencing, Irene Lyon, Gabor Mate, and Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk - what you do to babies matter. You can't just do whatever you want to them and expect it not to affect their development.
This country mutilates boys' genitals then asks them to fight and die and sacrifice for it?
Men and boys are treated like slaves. Boys are trained from birth to be masochistic beasts of burden.
Americans mutilate a boy's genitals, then force him into Selective Service as an extra "thank you".
Such "Liberty and Freedom".
What rubbish.
Foregen is a biotech company that is reversing circumcision with regenerative medicine.
Look them up.
~12-14 sq. inches of densely innervated highly erogenous healthy tissue.
Over 6500 species of mammals have foreskins. These animals don't make soap, have running water or live in the suburbs - dogs, bats and whales do not suffer.
European men, Japanese men, the majority of the world's men do not suffer.
MEN SHOULD OWN THEIR OWN COCKS.
Circumcision is male genital mutilation, a human rights violation that degrades and reduces sexual pleasure.
Foregen, within the next year will have fully reverse circumcision with regenerative medicine. The underlying technology is already approved, phase 2 of 3 animal trials is almost concluded, phase 3 of 3 human trials starts soon, and well over $1 Million dollars and counting have been donated with many loyal monthly donors.
BOYS SHOULD OWN THEIR OWN PENISES.
Americans need to learn how to take care of intact baby boys.
They're not dirty.
The foreskin is fused to the head of the penis at birth, many in the USA do not know that, even healthcare "professionals", so they forcibly retract the foreskin and cause a tear in the baby boy's foreskin which is painful, causes bleeding, injury, scar tissue, an a higher likelihood of phimosis, inability for the foreskin to retract at a later age because of the scar tissue making the foreskin less elastic.
By age 7, 40% of USA boys have been forcibly retracted and injured! (Source: Intact America website)
AMERICAN IGNORANCE CAUSES FORESKIN ISSUES.
Europe knows better, they know that the foreskin is fused to the head of the penis until around age 10.5 on average, it is there to protect the penis like the girl's hymen protects her vaginal canal from waste products like urine and feces.
The foreskin is adhered to the glans head of the penis like the nail is adhered to the finger.
USA healthcare workers are NOT TAUGHT THIS, they are taught that boys ought to be mutilated because they are dirty.
American ignorance causes foreskin issues.
Further, the inside of the foreskin has the same cells as the inside of the eyelids, mouth and vagina - the inner mucosal lining.
You do NOT use soap, that disrupts the pH balance because soap is basic, and the inner mucosal lining is slightly acidic. This also dries out the inner mucosal lining and causes irritation and foreskin issues!
AMERICAN IGNORANCE from forcible retraction and the use of soap is the problem.
You only clean what is seen, and with lukewarm water.
Women do not use soap inside of the vagina.
Americans are ignorant about the male anatomy and most men do not know what they are missing in this country.
It's uncomfortable, but we need to end this garbage.
I honestly cannot tell if you ignore these SEXIST DOUBLE STANDARDS and human rights violations like male genital mutilation on purpose or if you just do not care?
Women have so many ways out of responsibility in terms of motherhood, not being in the draft, marriage contract, and other rights like having their entire genitalia intact to actually have full authentic sexual experiences.
Women are treated better.
And you wonder why marriage rates are low?
80% of suicides are men for a reason - it's rough, lonely, cold, abusive, and few people seem to really care.
You ignore how difficult it is to be an involved father if you slide into unplanned parenthood with someone where you both never decided to be “an us with a future” in the first place. Many never married parents (which is far more than divorced) often have relationship troubles. This presents tremendous barriers to the non-residential parent (typically dad)
Social messages matter. I’m sure that Richard would never tell his sons marriage doesn’t matter. Egalitarian marriage helps everyone. I’m n addition to economic supports all children and families need-- no reason not to educate young people on how to form and maintain healthy relationships. We’ve barely started to do that Where we have, you’d be surprised how much youth appreciate it
“Men need to know what they can uniquely contribute to their family. The abiding presence of a father isn’t replaceable by their paycheck, their banked sperm, or their weekend visits. Men and women both are impeded in knowing themselves and the full potential of their relationship when fathers are treated as trivial.” Wow.
Undoubtedly this is a complex issue, but I think a more pertinent and useful question to ask of men is if they really want to parent, whether married or not. My personal experience and observation is that most men happily relegate the heavy lifting of parenting to women. Research at the Pew Center, among others, confirms that women still carry more the household and caregiving load, despite the fact that nearly two-thirds of mothers work outside the home. Additionally, according to the US Census Bureau, 16% of US women are the primary breadwinners and another 29% earn the same as their husbands. Most working mothers I know, including myself, would welcome more help with the kids. And elderly parents too by the way, since upwards of 75% of caregivers in the US are female. If I had a daughter, frankly I'd beg her not to have children, married or not. The personal, physical, financial and emotional costs of being the primary parent and caretaking two elderly parents with serious diseases has been exorbitant for me. And ultimately no complete discussion of the state of marriage, family, parenting and gender roles can be had without the addressing the absolutely shameful lack of accommodation for families in the US, currently one of only 6 countries without guaranteed paid family or medical leave. Maybe aspiring US fathers can convince their elected leaders in Congress, mostly men at abut 75%, to make changes in public policy (and thus attitudes) so that there's incentive and opportunity for young Americans to marry and have families. Or better yet, encourage more progressive women to run for public office, and then actually elect them, so they can get the job done.
I’d recommend checking out Jen Randles’ recent book, “Essential Dads,” which is all about programs trying to support fatherhood among low income men (I wrote a review in Contemporary Sociology if you want a short version). Randles winds up ambivalent about the programs, but it reinforces the importance of fostering fathering behaviors and identities among men who aren’t married to the mothers of their children.
That this is even debatable reminds me of the quote “we are living in post-nuance times”. Everyone has an anecdote as to why marriage is good or bad and the nuanced truth is it depends on what we bring to the marriage. Twenty years in men’s groups tells me generally speaking marriage makes for better men which translates to better fathers and partners and neighbors and employees. Mostly because a legal commitment reduces uncertainty during the inevitable hard and uncertain times. Kids without married fathers (or no fathers) aren’t doomed anymore than kids who grow up without mothers are. Kids who aren’t loved however will struggle deeply - how we are treated as children is generally how we will treat ourselves and others for the rest of our lives. Again generally.
Fatherhood and marriage, redux.
"A good faith debate about whether fathers need to be husbands"
Absolutely not. There are plenty, way too many, fatherless boys in the foster care system in need of a forever home. Single men of at least middle class income should adopt them. This will also solve the male loneliness epidemic.
No idea what pro marriage policies look like? What a disingenuous statement.
Here's an idea Mr. Reeves. No man would want to get into a contract where the state incentivises the other party when she breaks the contract by penalizing him.
Fix divorce, alimony and child support laws. Fix the discrimination in family court. Do that, and marriage is fixed.
I think their is plenty of blame to go around for the breakdown of family. However, the misandrist, feminist organizations have been the primary driving force. Their vision of a utopian society that is totally matriarchal has made our society sick. While their goal is to lift women up by neutering and demeaning men, they have inadvertently hurt those they claim to advocate for. If our society is going to heal, we must fight back against their omnipresent influence.
I completely get Anna Machin's comment that 'fathers aren't really there for mothers'. It's taken me a long time to understand that I'm not just the support act to my amazing wife and the mother of our children. But my Twitter biog for example says 'husband' first, before 'dad' because I really saw (maybe still do see) myself as that first. And that's not helpful and not doing my children any favours as I now understand
IMO the correlation between marriage/marital stability and college degrees is not a coincidence, though it is possible that those men who get degrees are, to begin with, culturally more child-nourishing than those who do not.
Encouraging men to get college degrees (or the equivalent) look s like the best way to encourage marriage and stability bringing up children. Not perfect, But better ny more than just by few percentage points.
That will not change the cultural factors that make single parenthood heritable among some sub-cultures of Americans. But it would be a start.
If you first value marriage, then valuing fatherhood will follow. Stop teaching mindless sex to kids and start teaching them about healthy, committed relationships and you might get better fathers. This is culture problem in that our moral cohesion as a country has disintegrated. We need to rediscover the moral fabric that produced healthy families in times past. If we don't, then we'll just have to rediscover it the hard way: by losing our society to chaos and criminality first. Less marriage = less dads = more prisons.
You say you know of no way to increase marriage? How about default child custody of 50/50 which is the case in so many countries? How about criminalizing/penalizing paternity fraud and NOT forcing men to pay child support for children that are NOT THEIRS - it's slavery, and yes, this happens a lot!
People like to pretend that fathers don't want to be in their child's life to explain fatherlessness - that's just convenient misandry.
Further, you want to increase marriage? How about not unilaterally enforcing men to provide finances to the woman during and even after the marriage when divorce happens! The part that learns less is incentivized financially to break the marriage and family up without any repercussion to them.
Women are not as affected by divorce - they know that - and they know they can coerce their husband and make them feel dread if the husband is not doing what they want.
I know of women that have threatened divorce if he didn't buy her a new phone, car, home - I witnessed it firsthand.
If you quit your job, don't expect a paycheck.
Alimony should not exist and child custody should be default 50/50 like it is in so many countries already.
In the UK a woman can claim sexual assault when fighting the ex husband in court as a way to get her legal fees waived! Lawyers literally recommend these women lie to get free legal support. The men have to use up their own dollars.
Look at this lawyer's interview for mor info.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHtsk1a1T8o
For paternity tests, the men have to pay for it. Women have access to funds that men don't have access to.
How can you seriously not know how to increase marriage rates?
Divorce lawyers literally tell women to lie about sexual abuse of them, the wife, and even the children, to get custody in family court.
These systems need to change.
Stop playing clueless about this.
Men are tired of being treated like masochistic beasts of burden working the field.
People only pretend to care about men when they withdraw from society and people start to get uncomfortable.
Like when a TV stops working, you slap the side of it until the signal comes back on.
"The beatings will continue until morale improves".
Your writings are quite gynocentric.
Marriage contracts are unfair - all the responsibility and the risk is upon men - and women lord that over the men, holding them hostage.
Don't play dumb.
Men are enforced by law to provide even after divorce, what are women enforced by law to provide? Nothing.
There, I solved the great "mystery" for you.
further, women can abort or abandon children at designated baby drop off areas, no repercussions. The state doesn't chase her for child support.
Men cannot abandon children.
Fatherhood is forced, motherhood is not.
Men are enforced to provide finances, but women are not forced to provide anything in marriage.
Women have rights to their genitals, but boys get circumcised and mutilated and USA thinks it is a funny joke to put in their crap TV shows and trash Hollywood garbage films.
Getting it yet?
https://www.foregen.org/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyRUHSsZZa4&list=PLGFFi6pRCnCdQTe1iG3Tw4Td9jvhY2w74
https://fiamengofile.substack.com/
https://gynocentrism.com/
http://empathygap.uk/
Here are some useful links.
FOREGEN is a company that is regrowing foreskins in labs, healthy densely innervated highly erogenous sexual tissue that over 6500+ species of mammals have. European men do not suffer for having their entire genitals.
Imagine having your genitals mutilated, then growing up being told how to treat girls, but never being taught how you should be treated and when do identify abuse from women or society, then getting thrown into selective service draft system as human cannon fodder.
DO YOU GET IT YET?
Men are treated like masochistic beasts of burden.
This society hates men and takes them for granted.
I'm glad that marriage and military recruitment is at an all time low.
young men know these double standards - and many of them don't put up with it and refuse to contribute to a society that only liberates women and protects them, but keeps men in their shackles.
---------------------------------------
MORE ON MALE GENITAL MUTILATION
Circumcision is misandrist, sexist, child sexual abuse mutilation.
MEN DESERVE FULL RIGHTS OVER THEIR GENITALS.
IT IS Genital mutilation.
It's misandrist mutilation that needs to be banned on minors.
If it's not a life-saving procedure, it is unnecessary mutilation.
The film, "American Circumcision", by Brendon Marotta, needs to be viewed en masse, too.
Neonatal circumcision is a preverbal somatic trauma, an adverse childhood event. For background, and sources, look up Dr. Peter Levine of Somatic Experiencing, Irene Lyon, Gabor Mate, and Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk - what you do to babies matter. You can't just do whatever you want to them and expect it not to affect their development.
This country mutilates boys' genitals then asks them to fight and die and sacrifice for it?
Men and boys are treated like slaves. Boys are trained from birth to be masochistic beasts of burden.
Americans mutilate a boy's genitals, then force him into Selective Service as an extra "thank you".
Such "Liberty and Freedom".
What rubbish.
Foregen is a biotech company that is reversing circumcision with regenerative medicine.
Look them up.
~12-14 sq. inches of densely innervated highly erogenous healthy tissue.
Over 6500 species of mammals have foreskins. These animals don't make soap, have running water or live in the suburbs - dogs, bats and whales do not suffer.
European men, Japanese men, the majority of the world's men do not suffer.
MEN SHOULD OWN THEIR OWN COCKS.
Circumcision is male genital mutilation, a human rights violation that degrades and reduces sexual pleasure.
Foregen, within the next year will have fully reverse circumcision with regenerative medicine. The underlying technology is already approved, phase 2 of 3 animal trials is almost concluded, phase 3 of 3 human trials starts soon, and well over $1 Million dollars and counting have been donated with many loyal monthly donors.
BOYS SHOULD OWN THEIR OWN PENISES.
Americans need to learn how to take care of intact baby boys.
They're not dirty.
The foreskin is fused to the head of the penis at birth, many in the USA do not know that, even healthcare "professionals", so they forcibly retract the foreskin and cause a tear in the baby boy's foreskin which is painful, causes bleeding, injury, scar tissue, an a higher likelihood of phimosis, inability for the foreskin to retract at a later age because of the scar tissue making the foreskin less elastic.
By age 7, 40% of USA boys have been forcibly retracted and injured! (Source: Intact America website)
AMERICAN IGNORANCE CAUSES FORESKIN ISSUES.
Europe knows better, they know that the foreskin is fused to the head of the penis until around age 10.5 on average, it is there to protect the penis like the girl's hymen protects her vaginal canal from waste products like urine and feces.
The foreskin is adhered to the glans head of the penis like the nail is adhered to the finger.
USA healthcare workers are NOT TAUGHT THIS, they are taught that boys ought to be mutilated because they are dirty.
American ignorance causes foreskin issues.
Further, the inside of the foreskin has the same cells as the inside of the eyelids, mouth and vagina - the inner mucosal lining.
You do NOT use soap, that disrupts the pH balance because soap is basic, and the inner mucosal lining is slightly acidic. This also dries out the inner mucosal lining and causes irritation and foreskin issues!
AMERICAN IGNORANCE from forcible retraction and the use of soap is the problem.
You only clean what is seen, and with lukewarm water.
Women do not use soap inside of the vagina.
Americans are ignorant about the male anatomy and most men do not know what they are missing in this country.
It's uncomfortable, but we need to end this garbage.
SOURCES: FOREGEN, INTACT AMERICA, DOCTORS OPPOSING CIRCUMCISION
----------------------
I honestly cannot tell if you ignore these SEXIST DOUBLE STANDARDS and human rights violations like male genital mutilation on purpose or if you just do not care?
Women have so many ways out of responsibility in terms of motherhood, not being in the draft, marriage contract, and other rights like having their entire genitalia intact to actually have full authentic sexual experiences.
Women are treated better.
And you wonder why marriage rates are low?
80% of suicides are men for a reason - it's rough, lonely, cold, abusive, and few people seem to really care.
You ignore how difficult it is to be an involved father if you slide into unplanned parenthood with someone where you both never decided to be “an us with a future” in the first place. Many never married parents (which is far more than divorced) often have relationship troubles. This presents tremendous barriers to the non-residential parent (typically dad)
Social messages matter. I’m sure that Richard would never tell his sons marriage doesn’t matter. Egalitarian marriage helps everyone. I’m n addition to economic supports all children and families need-- no reason not to educate young people on how to form and maintain healthy relationships. We’ve barely started to do that Where we have, you’d be surprised how much youth appreciate it
“Men need to know what they can uniquely contribute to their family. The abiding presence of a father isn’t replaceable by their paycheck, their banked sperm, or their weekend visits. Men and women both are impeded in knowing themselves and the full potential of their relationship when fathers are treated as trivial.” Wow.
Undoubtedly this is a complex issue, but I think a more pertinent and useful question to ask of men is if they really want to parent, whether married or not. My personal experience and observation is that most men happily relegate the heavy lifting of parenting to women. Research at the Pew Center, among others, confirms that women still carry more the household and caregiving load, despite the fact that nearly two-thirds of mothers work outside the home. Additionally, according to the US Census Bureau, 16% of US women are the primary breadwinners and another 29% earn the same as their husbands. Most working mothers I know, including myself, would welcome more help with the kids. And elderly parents too by the way, since upwards of 75% of caregivers in the US are female. If I had a daughter, frankly I'd beg her not to have children, married or not. The personal, physical, financial and emotional costs of being the primary parent and caretaking two elderly parents with serious diseases has been exorbitant for me. And ultimately no complete discussion of the state of marriage, family, parenting and gender roles can be had without the addressing the absolutely shameful lack of accommodation for families in the US, currently one of only 6 countries without guaranteed paid family or medical leave. Maybe aspiring US fathers can convince their elected leaders in Congress, mostly men at abut 75%, to make changes in public policy (and thus attitudes) so that there's incentive and opportunity for young Americans to marry and have families. Or better yet, encourage more progressive women to run for public office, and then actually elect them, so they can get the job done.
I’d recommend checking out Jen Randles’ recent book, “Essential Dads,” which is all about programs trying to support fatherhood among low income men (I wrote a review in Contemporary Sociology if you want a short version). Randles winds up ambivalent about the programs, but it reinforces the importance of fostering fathering behaviors and identities among men who aren’t married to the mothers of their children.
That this is even debatable reminds me of the quote “we are living in post-nuance times”. Everyone has an anecdote as to why marriage is good or bad and the nuanced truth is it depends on what we bring to the marriage. Twenty years in men’s groups tells me generally speaking marriage makes for better men which translates to better fathers and partners and neighbors and employees. Mostly because a legal commitment reduces uncertainty during the inevitable hard and uncertain times. Kids without married fathers (or no fathers) aren’t doomed anymore than kids who grow up without mothers are. Kids who aren’t loved however will struggle deeply - how we are treated as children is generally how we will treat ourselves and others for the rest of our lives. Again generally.
An important subject, and one I’m tackling with several other men this week. https://open.substack.com/pub/bowendwelle/p/six-men-writing-about-fatherhood?r=16vgt&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
I have two teenage boys. I would metaphorically die without my husband.